Quote: |
badshow wrote:
Hi all, You can call me badshow for now I hope we form a good large communtty to discuss a lot of things, not at all necessary that anyone has to agree with anybody else. Hope to have a strong and healthy conversation/debate but within limits. See you around |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Listen J A H I L (Ignorant)
Ummi means the one who does is illiterate, i.e. does not now how to read nor write or at least does not know how to write Don't mix J A H I L with Ummi you J A H I L, a J A H I L may know how to read and write like you but still an ignorant |
Fathom wrote: |
You are arguing with me instead of the evidence. Here, let me post the evidence and you can argue against that instead of me: |
Ali Sina wrote: |
The Sheep Mentality and De-individuation. |
Fathom wrote: |
Muslims call themselves Ummah. This word is of the same root of Ummi. Ummi is how Muhammad referred to himself and it means unlettered, unschooled, uneducated. |
Fathom wrote: |
Therefore Ummah means the community of the unlettered followers. |
Fathom wrote: |
In the case of Muhammad this implied that his knowledge was of a divine source. |
Fathom wrote: |
However that distinction does not apply to the Ummah. Hence Ummah, by definition means the ignorant mass of believers. |
Fathom wrote: |
The verse 3:20 reads:
وَقُل لِّلَّذِينَ أُوْتُواْ الْكِتَابَ وَالأُمِّيِّينَ أَأَسْلَمْتُمْ And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: (Ummiyeen) "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" |
Fathom wrote: |
Here the word Ummiyeen الأُمِّيِّينَ which is the plural of Ummi is translates as: |
Fathom wrote: |
Yusuf Ali: those who are unlearned:
Pickthal: those who read not Shakir: the unlearned people |
Fathom wrote: |
Let us take another verse (Imran 3:75):
قَالُواْ لَيْسَ عَلَيْنَا فِي الأُمِّيِّينَ سَبِيلٌ "They say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).(Ummiyeen)" Yusuf Ali translates this word in this verse as ignorant. Pickthal translates it as Gentiles. And Shakir translates the word as unlearned people. The noun "gentile" is generally applied to an individual who is ignorant of the Scriptures. In English the synonym for "gentile" is "pagan". |
Fathom wrote: |
Historically, the term gentile was used by the governing Romans for the non-Romans (foreigners); it was adopted by the Jews to denote the non-Jews; in turn the Christians used it for the Pagans. In the Qur'an the term al-Ummiyeen, is generally translated as "the Unlettered folks". The verse 62:2 reads,
هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ Yusuf Ali translates this thus: "It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves," |
Fathom wrote: |
And in his commentary he writes: "The Unlettered: as applied to a people, it refers to the Arabs, in comparison with the People of the Book..." |
Fathom wrote: |
Verse: 2:78
وَمِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتَابَ And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, |
Fathom wrote: |
The root of Ummi is "Um" (mother). A literal translation of that into English would be ?????????????????????¢??Natural?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, although the two words have taken different meanings in time. Etymologically, Ummi is the natural state of being ignorant and unlearned, as when born by mother. |
Fathom wrote: |
So Ummah is the uneducated and unlettered mass of people who are ignorant of the scriptures and hence unable to find their way. |
Fathom wrote: |
The Ummah is in constant need of guidance. Imam, also from the same root, is one who leads the Ummah. This is basically the concept of sheep and shepherd. The entire community of Muslims is deemed to be sheep in need of shepherd.[/b] |
Fathom wrote: |
Now deal with it. |
SlaveofAllaah wrote: |
Brother AB Salam,
This guy has got great way of thinking, Allaah only knows people think so funny |
Chewchy wrote: |
In may many conversations with Muslim believers, one of the key things that has been brought up as to why Mohamed was a Prophet and chosen of God is that he was an illiterate... unable to read or write yet he produced the Koran.
When reading last night I found something that jumped out at me and wanted to ask the question of others here. According to Tabari 9:174 on Mohameds death bed "The Messenger's pain became so severe he said, 'Give me pen and paper so I may write a document for you so you will never go astray after me.'" 1) Would it stand to reason that the man who married Khadija and conducted business for her would be illiterate and unable to read or write? 2) Why would he ask for paper and writing implement if he were unable to read or write? Was it to draw cartoons perhaps? 3) Is it possible that between the authorship of the Koran and his near death, he had learned how to read and write... despite spending so much time raping, murdering and pillaging? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Quran says Muhammad was "Ummiyy" does it mean he was illiterate? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Hi Ahmed Bahgat, Resident ignorant Haji Murad here with a request:
Can you please bring it all in context? <<< and >>> 29:48 ? Just bring the verses and no sweat. I will do the rest. I hope you may do. Cheers Haji Murad |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Okay my friend. I will bring them and if you don't mind tell us interpretate those verses:وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُون
وَكَذَلِكَ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ فَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ وَمِنْ هَؤُلَاء مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الْكَافِرُون وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَاتٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْآيَاتُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَإِنَّمَا أَنَا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِهِمْ أَنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَرَحْمَةً وَذِكْرَى لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ [b]Quran Chapter: 29 Ankaboot (The Spider) 46-51: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender In like manner We have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom We gave the Scripture aforetime will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And none deny our revelations save the disbelievers And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood. But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny our revelations save wrongdoers And they say: Why are not portents sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Portents are with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner. Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto thee the Scripture which is read unto them? Lo! herein verily is mercy, and a reminder for folk who believe. [End of Picktal translation] Please don't inflate the post, just tell us the context reading altogether. Cheers HM |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Please don't inflate the post, just tell us the context reading altogether. |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
Hello
How about you bring the verses before it and after it and walk us through it and I will come later and expose you if you fault deal? cheers |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Okay my friend. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
I will bring them and if you don't mind tell us interpretate those verses: |
Haji Murad wrote: |
وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُون وَكَذَلِكَ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ فَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ وَمِنْ هَؤُلَاء مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الْكَافِرُون وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَاتٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْآيَاتُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَإِنَّمَا أَنَا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِهِمْ أَنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَرَحْمَةً وَذِكْرَى لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُون َ [/b]Quran Chapter: 29 Ankaboot (The Spider) 46-51: |
Haji Murad wrote: |
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender
In like manner We have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom We gave the Scripture aforetime will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And none deny our revelations save the disbelievers And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood. But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny our revelations save wrongdoers And they say: Why are not portents sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Portents are with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner. Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto thee the Scripture which is read unto them? Lo! herein verily is mercy, and a reminder for folk who believe. [End of Picktal translation] |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Cheers HM |
Haji Murad wrote: | ||
Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
This was your argument. I quoted you exactly. Now I brought more verses to just get an understanding of the context. My argument is: From these verses 29:48 you can not conclude Muhammad was illiterate. "Thilawath" doesn't mean "reading" here., besides transcribing with right hand is metaphorical. Do you have any counter argument? Cheers HM |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Hi Ahmed Bahgat, |
You wrote: |
Therefore from 29:48, And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand SHOULD IRREFUTABLY MEAN THAT MOHAMMED WAS ILLITERATE |
Haji Murad wrote: |
This was your argument. I quoted you exactly. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Now I brought more verses to just get an understanding of the context. My argument is: |
Haji Murad wrote: |
From these verses 29:48 you can not conclude Muhammad was illiterate. "Thilawath" doesn't mean"reading" here. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
, besides transcribing with right hand is metaphorical. Do you have any counter argument? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Cheers
HM |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Ahmed...you are slipping again. I brought the verses to prove if we read them in context, it tells us Allah the alleged God tells Muhammad that he didn't recite any scriptures (Torah and Injeel) before. That doesn't mean he couldn't read. For example, I can tell you I haven't recite Ilyad of Homer. Does that make me illiterate?
Tilawat doesn't mean reading: If it was so: What do these verses talk about? كَذَلِكَ أَرْسَلْنَاكَ فِي أُمَّةٍ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهَا أُمَمٌ لِّتَتْلُوَ عَلَيْهِمُ الَّذِيَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَهُمْ يَكْفُرُونَ بِالرَّحْمَـنِ قُلْ هُوَ رَبِّي لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ مَتَابِ Quran: 13:30 Thus We send thee (O Muhammad) unto a nation, before whom other nations have passed away, that thou mayst recite unto them that which We have inspired in thee, while they are disbelievers in the Beneficent. Say: He is my Lord; there is no God save Him. In Him do I put my trust and unto Him is my recourse. God tells Muhammad to recite. How can an illiterate recite or read? After dealing this, we can move onto writing with right hand. One subject at a time okay..? Cheers HM |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
It is you who always slips, remember your translation to Ariel?
Read above again mister confused, Allah AWHA (i.e. inspired Mohammed) to recite the Quran from his mind or behind the angel sent with it to him, whatever way you want to take it, Mohammed read from either his mind or behind another entity that taught him (an angel of course), for the believers they need to do the same, i.e. Tatlu Al Quran, and the Tilawah can be achived by any of the following methods: 1) Read it from a book 2) Read it from the mind 3) Read it behind another person who reads it it either from the mind or from a book you have no bloody point, and I can assure you that you won't be able to refute 29:48 because the freakminders of free-minds.org did their best two years ago wiith me and failed, and I'm sure the freakminders know the Quran far better than you do, at least they believe in it let's now stop wasting time and move on to another related subject, the way you mentioned the word Ummi to another poster implies that you certainly know what it means, why not enlighten us and tell us what the Arabic word Ummi means?, this is the second time Ii asked you and you are clearly implementing the kafir commmon trick (turn a blind eye), but this is not going to worl with me as you know |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Enduring all those personal insults, |
Haji Murad wrote: |
I still ask you why don't you deal the subject at hand? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
You brought verses to state Muhammad was illiterate. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
My argument is your argument based on verses 29:48 is insufficient prove Muhammad was illiterate. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Now if you concede to me that they are not sufficient, |
Haji Murad wrote: |
we can move on. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
So..what's your position now? Do you withdraw your claim based on Verse 29:48? Or stick with it and argue Muhammad was illiterate? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
"Ummiyy" "Right hand" These both can be dealt after this. Rest assured. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Now I refuted your hypothesis based on 29:48 that Muhammad not reciting previous scriptures doesn't mean he was illiterate. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
If it was so, Allah wouldn't have commanded him to read Quran or recite Quran. In both places the verbal form of Tilawa is used. In verse 29:48, the undertone is Muhammad wasn't aware of any previous scriptures. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Or he hasn't recited any previous scriptures. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
And if you argue it proves Muhammad was illiterate, then why Allah later commands him with the same word (li tatluwa)? That means Tatluwa alone is not an evidence for Muhammad being illiterate. Do you get the point? Haji Murad |
Haji Murad wrote: | ||
Ahmed Bahgat,
I haven't got enough time to waste on this. This would be the last time I am explaining. This is your post: You can't deny it.
Now please focus: First, I asked you to bring the verses before and after 29:48. When you refused, I did bring. From the structure or context we understand God is speaking of previous scriptures. Verse 29:46 clearly indicating People of the Book (Ahlul Kitab) and as it continues, God says Muhammad hadn't read those books means scriptures of Ahlul Kitab = Injeel and Torah. Am I right or not? And you want to argue it is an evidence Muhammad was illiterate. The verse alone. That was your argument, scroll button will help you. Therefore, I dealt the first part of the verse which mentions reciting. Allah said Muhammad he didn't recite previous scriptures. (Again read the verses in context) That is not a sufficient evidence he was illiterate. If you agree we can move on the next transcribing with right hand. Are you? HM |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
It is me who should not waste anytime on that, here is your final chance to explain yourself |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Final chance accepted. |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
show us that according to the Quran that Mohammed can not be illiterate, and I will do the opposite and leave it to the public |
Haji Murad wrote: |
See Ahmed Bahgat, this fallacy is called shifting the burden of proof. Since you are not familiar with logic, it would simply be a waste of time to tutor you of fallacies. Yet let me explain. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
What is this argument all about? You guys say Muhammad the person was illiterate according to Quran. It is your claim. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Now when I am asking for proof, you are shifting it to me asking where does it say in Quran Muhammad was literate. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
I didn't make any claim here. All my argument consists you can't prove Muhammad was illiterate from Quran. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
It is unto you to prove using Quran Muhammad was illiterate. I am not liable as far as I am not the one who makes such a claim. Just for example: If I ask you can you prove Muhammad is not a bastard using Quran alone, how would you reply? |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
now to answer you question, yes 29:48 is enough evidence to prove that Mohammed never read nor write any book untill the Quran was revealed
now being called Ummi is also another complelling proof that he indeed never knew how to read nor write i.e. I DO NOT concede that 29:48 is not enough evidence that Mohammed did not know how to read nor write any book prior to the Quran revelation,. in fact it is enough of an evidence to prove that he was as such |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Dear Ahmed, readers of this forum are not idiots. You made this claim. See it here: This is your own quote: |
(I) Haji Murad wrote: |
My argument is your argument based on verses 29:48 is insufficient prove Muhammad was illiterate. |
(You) Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
Did I ever said so?
no i didn't |
Haji Murad wrote: |
This is your own argument. You can't deny it or edit it because I quoted it. So what is your final position? Do you stick with verse 29:48 |
Haji Murad wrote: |
or do you need another back up from Quran? Make it clear, so that I can move on. |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
now it is your turn to answer the following:
1) where we read "previous scriptures" in 29:48? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
How does it happen to be 48 only? To be in numerical order 48 should follow 47,46,45...Isn't it so? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Why don't you read your book in context? Can you single out a verse and argue with it? Can you? If it is so, then deal this single verse of Quran:
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا رَجُلٌ بِهِ جِنَّةٌ فَتَرَبَّصُوا بِهِ حَتَّى حِينٍ 23:25 He is nothing but a madman: so bear with him for a while.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? Don't touch any other verses before or after it. Argue with this verse alone who is this madman? and who is talking in this verse. |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Once you deal this effectively, I will make it clear for you why the verse you brought to argue should be read in context. |
Ahmed Bahgat wrote: |
2) what is the meaning of Ummi? |
Haji Murad wrote: |
I have a clear understanding on the "Ummi" found in Quran. When you make any claim with it, I will do my part by all means. First; deal the issues before it. Then tell us what does this particular "Ummi" means to you. Then refutation will follow and take my word for that.
Good luck HM |
Haji Murad wrote: |
Hi Yassine,
Quran says Muhammad was "Ummiyy" does it mean he was illiterate? Cheers. Haji Murad |
The confused dumb bum Mindstorm wrote: |
Here's what Dr. G. Adisoma (add another one to the scholar list) had to say. |
Quote: |
The Muslim scholars derived the illiteracy concept for Muhammad from verses 7:157-158 of the Quran. They say that the word ummy means illiterate. It is true that in today?????????????????????¢??s standard Arabic, "illiterate" is one of the meaning of this word. But this is not a compelling evidence, since "gentile" is also another meaning of it. In fact, if we study the Quran carefully where this word is found, its usage has always been in the context of "the people of the scripture" vs. "the gentiles" (see for example 3:20, 3:75, 62:2, 2:78). It is even possible to surmise that the "illiterate" meaning is secondary. It came to be used after the Quran was revealed, since it is reasonable to deduct "illiterate" as the opposite of "those who can read." This in turn may well be coming from "those who read the book," or "those who received the book," or "the people of the book" (ahl al-Kitab), which is precisely the opposite of "the gentiles." |
ygalg wrote: |
Goy/Gentile can be referred to anyone, whatever rich or poor.
ummi otoh, addresses the sub-class people. they may know read and write but not as the aristocrats. |